I'd say, in general, Electronics have made vehicles (planes too) more
reliable and safer, not less. Trick is to implement the systems correctly
with sound engineering practices. I bet many pilots have lived to fly
another day because they had a FADEC system instead of an iced carb. Same
thing for Airbags, ABS, etc. Would you fly a plane if you noticed there
were Peugeot-style connectors on the FADEC harness?! =)
In my "day job" I am often called on to engineer electronic systems for
harsh environments, so I know it can be done with careful design. It takes
attention to the mechanical engineering not just the electrical engineering
alone. Peugeot seems to constantly miss this aspect, and if appears their
electrical engineering department is only getting worse. (or maybe they are
a constant, but the problems are more frequent as the systems get more
pervasive)
While I know that aviation is much more strict, (you pretty much can't put
non-certified ANYTHING in your aircraft) automotive electrical engineering
doesn't have to live with these restrictions, and still has managed to
achieve very reliable systems. You just don't see these kinds of failures
on a Lexus, for instance!
I was shocked to hear that the Prius (loaded with electronics) has only had
one electronic issue. (and it was a software bug) That car is a radical
design without prior history, so I would have expected more problems in the
field, but it just goes to show you that it CAN be done right, and without
raising costs.
Then there is the driver factor.... If you can't drive (or fly), you
shouldn't be trying to do it, electronics or not. Still it would be hard to
argue that a Terrain warning system or an ABS system could be detrimental to
a properly trained pilot/driver, no?
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Ashment" <wyofisher@caldsl.com>
To: "Ben Pender" <ben_pender@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Peugeot-L" <peugeot-l@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Peugeot-L] Re: Electrical Quality
> Funny, we have the same arguments in aviation. I install some pretty
> sofisticated equipment, yet still fly behind 20 year old radios in a very
> low tech aircraft. Compass and map are the best tools to fly by. I swear
> some of my customers would die if the power when out, with the moving map
> gps, autopilot, electronic charts, electronic flight displays, traffic
> warning systems, satellite weather, terrain warning systems. Lost a good
> customer because he couldn't handle his electronic marvel and fly the
> danged
> plane.
>
> Joe
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ben Pender" <ben_pender@yahoo.com>
> To: "PeugeotGroup" <peugeot-l@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Peugeot-L] Re: Electrical Quality
>
>
>> Hugo,
>>
>> At the risk of being flamed, I think that anyone who
>> buys all that crap deserves all that trouble!!!
>>
>> :^)
>>
>> Integrated radio? Just get a decent aftermarket
>> unit and install. It could care less what the rest of
>> the car is doing, as long as it gets 12V, more or
>> less.
>>
>> Automatic wipers?!?!? And I thought only fat,
>> stupid Americans were so lazy that they couldn't reach
>> over and switch the wipers on. And, really, its not
>> much of a reach.
>>
>> Drive by wire? How many throttle cables have you
>> ever seen break? Not many would be my guess. And if
>> they did, you just buy a new cable and install. Not
>> very hard, or expensive for that matter. And, as a
>> benefit, you don't have some failure-prone computer
>> looking over your shoulder. As strange as it may
>> sound, especially given the average intelligence and
>> driving skill of Americans, letting them have direct
>> and deliberate control over the throttle is probably
>> best.
>>
>> Satellite navigation unit? I've got a solid state
>> nav unit in my cars. A MAP! My god, if you have to
>> have a nav unit to get you around the block, you
>> really shouldn't be driving. And screen? People say
>> that looking at a map is distracting. I'd say its no
>> more than a bright, pretty nav screen taking up all
>> kinds of space on the dash.
>>
>> Automatic lights? I usually realize that I should
>> turn my lights on when I can't see because its dark.
>> I've been turning my lights on and off all by myself
>> for years now. Its hard not to realize that its dark
>> out. And, if you can't realize that, then you really
>> should be driving.
>>
>> Engine management, turbo, and the other mechanical
>> (what there is left that is mechanical) I can see the
>> frustration.
>>
>> The only thing that prevents it from being an
>> American car is it doesn't (yet) have power doors so
>> you don't have to expend the energy to actually swing
>> one open.
>>
>> Anyway, all this unnecessary content is just
>> problems waiting to happen. And, all the complexity
>> means more weight, which means bigger more powerful
>> engines, which means better and heavier construction
>> which means more powerful engines, and so on until you
>> have what we have in America-roadways crowded with
>> 6500# behemouths piloted by lazy (power/automatic
>> everything, even doors), inept, incompetent, and
>> ultimately un-focused drivers.
>>
>> Oh, well, to each his own. But I'll tell you one
>> thing. The manual windows in my cars will outlast
>> even the best power windows. And, they go up and down
>> as fast as I care to make them! My radio? Doesn't
>> know its in a foreign car. Doesn't care. 12V neg
>> ground is all that matters. And it was cheap.
>> Headlights/wipers/throttle control-well that's been
>> discussed already.
>>
>> Good luck with your Crays! If you ever need a ride,
>> call me!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ben Pender
>>
>>
>>
>> --- hugo_steincamp <hsteincamp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Electrics, software bugs, electronic going haywire
>>> seem to be common
>>> place in the 307, old or new. And that's only part
>>> of it. I wouldn't
>>> touch one with a 44 ft. pole. Here's a 2005 307:
>>>
>>> New Turbo Charger at 1000 miles.
>>>
>>> New engine management system at 2500 miles.
>>>
>>> Cruise control fails to cut out when needed to.
>>>
>>> Throttle action jerky and unresponsive.
>>>
>>> Radio jumps from one station to the next, and
>>> apparently if it
>>> doesn't like the channel, it switches on the CD
>>> changer, which then
>>> usually doesn't work after about 5 minutes.
>>>
>>> CD changer damages CD's whilst loading them.
>>>
>>> New EGR valve fitted.
>>>
>>> New CD changer, Sat Nav unit, and display screen
>>> fitted.
>>>
>>> Fuel consumption has never been better than 32.1 to
>>> the gallon,
>>> depite the official figures being over 60mpg. I
>>> would at least expect
>>> 40-45 on a decent run.
>>>
>>> Another new engine management system at 8000 miles.
>>> Also yet another
>>> attempt at fixing all the various electrical
>>> problems affecting the
>>> CD/Sat Nav/Telematics package, to no avail.
>>>
>>> Fuel consumption getting worse, and the performance
>>> for a 136HP car
>>> is appalling, no power, feels more like a 90hp
>>> engine.
>>>
>>> Automatic headlight system failed, lights stuck on
>>> permanently now.
>>>
>>> Rain sensor would not know water if you stuck it in
>>> a bucket of the
>>> stuff, which means the auto wipers also don't work
>>> now.
>>>
>>> On occasion, the car simply will not start, like a
>>> dead battery, only
>>> everything else works, just not the engine/starter.
>>> Great for
>>> confidence when away from home.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In peugeot-L@yahoogroups.com, Francois Dion
On
>>> <francois.dion@g...>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > The 307 first year was pretty bad. "Electricals"
>>> however is a
>>> misnomer
>>> > for many issues. Lots of components communicate on
>>> a serial bus now
>>> > and a lot of issues were firmware related.
>>> >
>>> > Look at the comments from the more recent 307 sw,
>>> people are very
>>> happy with it.
>>> >
>>> > BTW, who was supplying the electronics on the
>>> early 307 and who is
>>> > supplying now?
>>> >
>>> > As far as the 505, how many of us have owned their
>>> 505 since new and
>>> > how many issues only appeared late in the life of
>>> the vehicule? I
>>> know
>>> > I've had some issues but really cant complain as
>>> I've gotten all my
>>> > 505 with > 100K miles and > 10 years and most were
>>> caused by my
>>> > procrastination, and 1 on the 91 wagon by a
>>> ravenous mouse or
>>> > squirrel. So again, I cant complain.
>>> >
>>> > If you think things are bad now, wait until you
>>> get a hybrid and
>>> every
>>> > 3 years you have to replace your battery bank out
>>> of warranty (and
>>> > probably a few anciliary boards for voltage
>>> regulation that
>>> overheated
>>> > from a brownout condition).
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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Received on Tue Jan 24 22:19:21 2006
