Dan:
I agree with you about the Ford. Aside from that, let me just say
that an auto manufacturer such as Toyota, which is threatening GM's
position as the number one auto manufacturer in the world, produces
millions more cars than PSA does a year, but has far enormously fewer
complaints per car than PSA does. The volume of production should
have nothing to do with quality control. A manufacturer like Honda,
which produces more cars than Peugeot does a year almost consistently
designs and manufactures a car that can be driven 170K miles with
next to nothing going wrong with it. Our family's 2000 Honda Civic
has done 101,000 miles, yet it drives as good as new as far as I can
tell, and nothing has gone wrong with it. Moreover, the Japanese
manufacturers are very quick to design-out Meanwhile, 307s are have
transmissions and clutch flywheels replaced at under 30,000 miles. In
addition, why ssome owners reporting that so many 307s catching on
fire?
PSA choses its suppliers. PSA is ultimately responsible for the
quality of the parts that it suppliers provide. Why can't Peugeot
chose a supplier that is capable of producing a turn signal level
that operates properly? It is interesting that PSA recently announced
that they are going to insist that its suppliers produce better
quality parts "because they are costing us too much money." PSA's
warranty claims must be enormous, especially when you consider that a
number of its models are experiencing major component failure with
less than 40,000 miles on the clock.
Peugeot produces diesel engines that are wonderful on a number of
fronts. I drove a turbo diesel Xantia around the South Island of New
Zealand, and it was wonderful. Nevertheless, a list member who lives
in the UK and who repairs Peugeots for a living observed that he has
to repair and basically rebuild too many modern Peugeot diesel motors
because they self-destruct before 70,000 miles. It is interesting to
note on www.carsurvey.com that a number of Peugeot owners report
engine failure before 50,000 miles. I know that this is not a
scientific sample, but I am mindful of the fact that Peugeot comes
close to last on too many surveys that ask questions about the
reliability of car and the owners' satisfaction with it.
Many of the owners who have owned a 306 and a 307 report that the 306
was better to drive. The 306 handled better, was more communicative,
and basically fun to drive. (I've driven both the 306 and the 307 by
the way; the 306 has character, which has been engineered out of the
307.)
Look, I'm not picking on Peugeot. I'm just calling it as I see it. A
number of auto manufacturers have trouble in designing and building a
reliable,well built, durable car - VW/Audi, Fiat, Alfa, GM, Chrysler
and Ford come to mind. The cars look great in the advertisements, but
then there is the reality of owning them. The reality is that PSA has
trouble producing a reliable, durable product and difficulty in
training its dealers to fix cars with problems.
Hugo
- In peugeot-L@yahoogroups.com, Dan Midtdal <midvally@s...> wrote:
> Some people see the cup half full, some see it half empty. The
whole purpose of warranties is to catch the faults in a car and
replace them to the customers satisfaction. You sell 3 million cars
a year, you'll get a lot of complaints. People who are satisfied
with a product don't go out of their way go back to the dealer and
make an issue out of how satisfied they are. It is the complaints
that make the headlines. Some people are driving Peugeots because
their fleet manager put them in one when they are hard core Ford or
whatever and they will complain in part to get there Ford back.
> Parts fall off cars all the time, engines self destruct,
transmissions seize you name it. My brother has a Ford Escape/Mazda
Tribute, the engine had to be replaced at 30,000km (that 20,000 miles
folks) now that's what I call reliablity! Does that stop him from
buying another Ford? Nope, went out and bought an F150 to match the
Escape.
> Now back to the Peugeot, most of the items in the list relate to
items supplied by sub-contractors (radio, indicators electrical
connectors,horn etc) and this one: my biggest gripes is
> that it feels huge from behind the wheel,
> now there's a serious complaint if I ever heard of one!
> Now for the really important bit:
> The only good bit is the engine, which like all Peugeot diesels is
smooth, willing, quiet and frugal. Isn't the engine one of the few
parts that Peugeot builds from scratch in their factories?
> It is my understanding that Peugeot has gone to their suppliers and
demanded better reliability for parts.
> As for the bias from the media, remember Click and Clack? They
made a career out of bashing Peugeot, I paid no heed to what they
said because I simply considered the source.
> Dan
>
> From: hugo_steincamp
> To: peugeot-L@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:35 PM
> Subject: [Peugeot-L] Re: Test? Peugeot and Citroen has superior
design and suspension
>
>
>
>
> Actually, I've driven the 307 and a 406, and have read plently of
> reviews about the new Peugeots. I've also driven a Xantia. Why is
a
> review that is critical about a Peugeot product biased? Why is a
> review that says a 307 is not as good as drive as a Ford Focus
> biased? Do motor journalists have some conspiracy against
Peugeot? Is
> that what you're saying? Why is Peugeot near the bottom of nearly
> every consumer satisfaction survey? Why would the English
motoring
> press be baised agaist Peugeot and while the Germans aren't? Why
do
> so many owners of the 307 make complaints like these ones:
>
> "What has gone wrong with the car?
>
> Wiper arm flew off at 60 mph on the M1 when the car was just 3
days
> old.
>
> Engine compartment undertray fell off.
>
> Passenger electric window switch needed replacing after an
estimated
> 10 uses
>
> Load compartment light bulb blows every few weeks - dealer
doesn't
> know why.
>
> Reverse gear operation on rear wiper has never worked.
>
> Radio intermittently refuses to switch off.
>
> Indicator failure.
>
> Brakes became stiff and the engine started to lose power. Brake
servo
> needed changing.
>
> Plipper button fell out of key.
>
> Battery terminal connection would intermittently break, playing
havoc
> with the central locking.
>
> Horn has gone off of its own accord on three occasions.
>
> General comments?
> Awful car. The only good bit is the engine, which like all
Peugeot
> diesels is smooth, willing, quiet and frugal. 90PS is never going
to
> make a lump of lard like this go like a ball of fire, but it's
> surprisingly lively with the usual diesel midrange clout.
Averages 49
> mpg which is 5 mpg more than my previous Focus TD 90PS.
>
> The driving position takes some getting used to, as you feel
about a
> mile from the base of the windscreen. One of my biggest gripes is
> that it feels huge from behind the wheel, and just like driving
an
> MPV or a small van. Handling is okay, and very competent, but it
> lacks fun and involvement after a Focus and a 306. It also has
awful
> overlight and numb feeling steering which is inexcuseable as
Peugeot
> have demonstrated for 20 years that they can do better. Oh, and
the
> brakes are stupidly over-servoed. The merest brush on the pedal
makes
> the car stand on its nose.
>
> As for reliability, it's been a disaster. Okay, it's done 31,000
> miles in 8 and a bit months, but the Focus managed it, and so did
the
> 306 before it. This thing feels like it's going to be scrapyard
> material by the time it gets to 100,000 miles. Lots of silly
minor
> problems, and the people in the factory clearly haven't
comprehended
> the simple fact that in order for something to stay together, the
nut
> or screw securing it has to be done up! The wiper falling off
after 3
> days and the undertray after 3 weeks is inexcusable. Dealers are
rude
> and overpriced too."
>
> The 307 has some serious design and engineering issues. This
does
> not mean that I am inferring that all modern Pugs are crap. The
406
> seems to be quite reliable.
>
> Hugo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In peugeot-L@yahoogroups.com, Dan Midtdal <midvally@s...>
wrote:
> > Thanks for the good report Pasi. It is always a pleasure to
hear
> the positive stuff. Unfortunately some on this list continue to
> trash cars they have never driven and have only read a few biased
> reviews, particularly from the British Press and base their
opinions
> on that. Now if only we could read those glowing reports for
> ourselves...
> > Dan
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: peugeotvoittaja
> > To: peugeot-L@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 5:11 AM
> > Subject: [Peugeot-L] Re: Test? Peugeot and Citroen has
superior
> design and suspension
> >
> >
> >
> > The 307 won comparison test in Auto Bild (German Car
Magazine)
> last
> > week. C4 became second. Not bad for a car which is 'not class-
> > leading' to win a class leading car. ;)
> >
> > By the way. Handling was better in 307 among other things...
> >
> > Pasi from Finland
> > 405 SRI
> > 309 GT
> > 305 GL
> >
> > > The 307 - terrible unreliability and build quality and it
is
> not
> > even
> > > class-leading in the way it drives. (Get a Ford Focus
instead.
> Or
> > a
> > > Honda Civic Type R.)
> >
> >
> > > The only PSA product that seems to have the capability
> > > of being a class leader is the Citroen C4. It has done
very
> well
> > in
> > > reviews and has been rated first in its class by various
car
> > > magazines. It has beautiful styling as well.
> >
> > > Hugo Steincamp
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Received on Wed Mar 2 18:13:44 2005
