Hi Ben,
Just had to stick up for the RWD as I am always having this discussion with
FWD guys in my car club.
As for your power argument on ice - in most daily driving circumstances
you're right, but in the ice racing I do, there is always a need for power.
I'm running 4 studded winter grips, with over 150 studs per tire (We drill
more holes) - so although they spin on the standing start - you can still
put down some decent power - and I have felt that I don't have enough power
to be truly fast. (The next city over has wheel to wheel ice racing on
bolted tires - and I definitely need more power before I can race with
them.)
One thing I should mention - one of the club members runs well set up
Mustang 5.0. (He's running over 300 studs per tire.) He raced a "punky
know it all kid" with an A4 1.8T Audi running on Blizzaks. Course was a
mirror image track on a lake - so both cars ran at the same time. My buddy
Mike drove the wheels off the Stang and he beat the Audi by about 5 seconds
on a 45 second course. The Audi had decent traction - but it was an
understeering pig on the ice. The Mustang was almost elegant in it's
execution - and it was a site to behold. (Audi guy has NEVER come back out
to an event.)
It was all about the driver and how well the car was set up.
Hope no offense is taken - I love these kinds of discussions - and the list
has been quiet lately. :-)
I should also mention my winter car is an AWD Subaru Legacy. (With
suspension mods to tune out the understeer!)
Rabin
From: peugeot-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:peugeot-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ben Pender
Sent: December 11, 2005 4:53 PM
To: PeugeotGroup
Subject: RE: [Peugeot-L] Re: (off topic) 93 Volvo 850
Rabin,
Sorry, I certainly wasn't implying that that fwd was
any better than rwd. Just trying to point out, as you
did toward the end of your response, that both have
advantages and disadvantages, and that both pale in
comparison to awd.
I think you hit the nail on the head, though, when
you mentioned the superiority of your "underpowered"
505 compared to more powerful front drivers. The
reason your rwd Pug does better is precisely due to
its lack of power. Handling in snow has nothing to do
with how much power is available. It has to do with
not overpowering the traction that the wheel can
gather. More powerful cars are more likely to
overpower their tires. Its why most cars with autos
will start in 2nd, or possibly even 3rd gear when in
"winter" mode. So as not to overpower the tire's
ability to grip.
And, you also were correct when you implied that
chassis/suspension tuning has a lot to do with it as
well. Would you not agree that a Volvo 850 (or 405)
might handle better than a '76 Oldsmobile Delta 88?
The Olds has rear wheel drive, and a lot more torque!
And, yeah, with the Olds-mo-bubba, you can steer it
with the throttle, but that still doesn't mean it has
manners!
Again, my point that I'm trying to make is that both
set ups have advantages and disadvantages, and how
they drive is determined by much more than which end
is doing the driving.
How about a mid-engine awd set-up? That'd probably
handle pretty well.
Regards,
Ben Pender
- Rabin Rutten-James <rabin505@sasktel.net> wrote:
> Hmmm. Interesting.
>
>
>
> I can't argue with you over the superiority of AWD,
> but the RWD vs FWD
> argument you present is flawed.
>
>
>
> When was the last time you saw a FWD F1 car? Or any
> top line race car that
> isn't based on a production car? They simply don't
> exist.
>
>
>
> For average drivers, yes FWD will appear superior,
> and they may have certain
> advantages in poor weather. But a well set up RWD
> car with a good driver is
> EXCEPTIONALLY capable in poor conditions when set up
> properly.
>
>
>
> My underpowered 505 STI ice racer is a perfect
> example. On four studded
> winter tires, it holds it's own against any number
> of lighter more powerful
> FWD cars on the same tires. It doesn't have the
> advantage of weight over
> the driven wheels for acceleration - but what it
> does have is perfect
> balance, killer brakes, and a FAR higher capability
> for carrying speed
> through a corner.
>
>
>
> Don't underestimate a good RWD car, and I certainly
> think that calling it
> inferior to FWD is just plain wrong. Each has their
> own strengths, but for
> performance, I think the order of superiority is
> AWD, RWD, and then FWD -
> even in poor conditions. (Please note the
> production car caveat. WRC cars
> have to based on specific production car
> regulations. When cars are purpose
> built race cars - they tend to be RWD. (IE: Drag
> racing cars, Baja 1000,
> etc etc.)
>
>
>
> Can you tell I love my RWD? :-)
>
>
>
> Rabin
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: peugeot-L@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:peugeot-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Ben Pender
> Sent: December 11, 2005 10:51 AM
> To: PeugeotGroup
> Subject: Re: [Peugeot-L] Re: (off topic) 93 Volvo
> 850
>
>
>
> 505inme,
>
> Yeah, who needs fwd when you can have a torque
> tube
> to get out of line with all the strange associated
> harmonics? And, why bother putting weight over the
> driving wheels!
>
> Then again, why not drive all 4 wheels? After
> all,
> are there any rear driven world rallye cars anymore?
>
> I would say that those are the worst driving
> conditions. Once Audi showed the way with AWD, it
> didn't take long for everyone to either get used to
> loosing or come up with their own awd set-ups!
>
> If you're really worried about traction, then I
> can
> help you find an awd Audi. My only question is, do
> you prefer the older Audis with manual lockable
> center
> and rear diffs (really great for snow), or do you
> prefer the second generation with the torsen center
> diff (opposite of a regular diff in that it sends
> torque to the axle with the most traction) and
> manually lockable rear diff? Oh, and would you like
> all that with a turbine smooth NA 5 cylinder or a
> turbine smooth Turbocharged 5 cylinder?
>
> :^)
>
> Yeah, who wants inferior fwd? For that matter,
> who
> wants inferior rwd? Despite these shortcomings, I
> still love Peugeots! Anyway, I need a Pug, or
> something from France, since I own 11 cars, at least
> one from every European country that exported to the
> States, *except* France! I did own an 89 405Mi16
> when
> I was in England, though, and loved it despite its
> lack of AWD!
>
> Regards,
> Ben Pender
> President, North Alabama British Motoring Society
> Owner, Ben Pender's Vintage Imported Auto Repair
> some MGs
> some VWs
> some Audis
> some Yugos
> a Saab c900
> a Fiat X1/9
> and a love/weakness for anything Euro!
>
>
> --- the505inme <the505inme@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > If anything, I'd buy it and try to blow it up.
> > There's what, 2 million
> > of them things in N.A.? I think it's a fast car,
> > but boooorrrring,
> > and FWD. (who needs that?)
> >
> >
> > --- In peugeot-L@yahoogroups.com, kenneth parker
> > <elkeni@m...> wrote:
> > >
> > > The other day I saw a four door 93 Volvo
> 850
> > sedan with 155k on
> > it
> > > that its owner was selling for $2500. I know
> > nothing about this
> > > particular car except that it is a turbo and
> that
> > it has 5 cylinders.
> > > Does anyone out there have any experience
> with
> > the 5 cylinder
> > Volvos
> > > and has that experience been positive or
> negative?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Ken
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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