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wadehilts

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About wadehilts

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    Peugeot Enthusiast

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    wadehilts@yahoo.com

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    Portland, OR

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  1. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Hi everyone, I have an update! Stewart, I hope you're listening, I need a seasoned ZDJL expert on deck! I've successfully built and installed the missing tooth wheel crankshaft wheel. The 505 is running and I am controlling both fuel AND spark! I owe much of my design to an Australian friend of mine, Rob Swan, he built a similar system last year and is using it on his 505 ZDJL 851.y (the 851.y is the high compression Series 1 GTI ZDJL, my engine is the US spec 851.x with lower compression). Anyways, I noticed his timing map looks much like the one Stewart posted earlier on this thread, about 35 degrees of max centrifugal advance. Bizarrely enough, my US spec manual shows the maximum centrifugal advance to be only 25 degrees. Using his spark map, my engine performed beautifully with absolutely no knocking. Could this be why the USA ZDJLs were infamous for being more sluggish than their Renault counterparts. Massively retarded timing to meet some emission standard? I'm shocked, I can't imagine that retarding my timing 10 degrees would result in better performance, from what I understand power will flatline past a certain advance - sometimes before the knock limit, but I've never heard of 10 degrees of flat power and no knocking! Here is a link to some pictures of my build, as well as my ZDJL 851.x spark advance table from the manual: https://goo.gl/photos/gZ13wHQKazLwqyVc9 Bizarre. I will report economy improvements soon. Drive-ability and responsiveness has improved significantly with the better crank trigger installed. This car drives way better than the factory ZDJL did. Wade
  2. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Hello Goce, Yes, I am aware that 3.08 will be way too high, but I have a free 3.08 at my disposal so I wanted to pop it in and try it out as an experiment. I will probably end up attempting to buy a higher ratio diff from a local mechanic who has Peugeot parts. Looking at another post on this website, here are the relevant diffs: J - 9X37 = 4.111 - 86-89 Turbo Wagon Auto, XN6 Sedan, 87-? Euro ZDJL Sedan K - 9X35 = 3.889 - V6-Auto Sedan, 89 ZN3J and Turbo Auto Sedan L - 9X34 = 3.778 M - 10X37 = 3.700 - V6-Manual Sedan, 89 ZN3J 5-sp Sedan N - 12X43 = 3.583 P - 13X45 = 3.462 - Turbo Sedan, 89 Turbo 5-sp Sedan Q - 11X35 = 3.182 R - 13X43 = 3.308 S - 13X40 = 3.077 Depending on how the "S" differential that I put into my car feels, I will decide whether I want a M, N or P differential (assuming he has those available).
  3. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Hey Rabin, Glad it's not a difficult job as I may swap in a couple! It's my understanding that the ZDJL is the torquier of the two, but that comes with a price, as it is certainly slower to wind up than the XN-series engines. However it seems to be pretty tough and capable of good economy. I seem to have exaggerated the difference between the ZDJL and XN6 torque. According to Wikipedia the XN6 engine makes 116 ft-lbs @ 3500 rpm, while the ZDJL makes 131 ft-lbs at 3500 rpm (these are the stats for the American versions of the engines). I think Peugeot dropped the ball when they assigned a 4.11 differential to this engine, as I know it can handle more load at lower rpms than it currently is asked to. Best regards, Wade
  4. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Hi guys, Fuel economy update as promised: I have noticed a significant highway mpg improvement. I get about 26 mpg on the highway with MSII controlling the fuel settings. I haven't moved to spark control yet. According to a Peugeot mechanic I know, this engine didn't get much better than 22 mpg in US model 505s typically. So that's a marked improvement. Around town, I think I have some more work to do in terms of my fuel map tuning and accel enrichment. I get about 18 mpg, which is roughly the same as I used to. I have a 4.11 differential in my 505, and my friend has a spare 3.08 diff. I am going to swap the 3.08 diff, which will drop my revs by a huge amount. A little too much probably but I'm just doing it as an experiment. Instead of revving at 2800 rpms at 60 mph, I'll be closer to 2100 rpms in top gear. The ZDJL is much torquier than the XN series, so I'm hoping it will be able to hold its ground at 2100 rpm. Maybe it won't, but that's what 4th gear is for. I am going to see how this effects my mileage around town and on the highway. Anyways, I've heard that diff changes on 505s with disc brakes are absurdly easy, so I'm looking forward to testing this out.
  5. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Hi Rabin, I haven't considered that idea. I'd imagine that would work pretty well, assuming the teeth are thick enough for the hall sensor. I guess it's rather an unknown, so I have been leaning towards buying a trigger wheel from DIYAutotune. Also, I have the luxury of my friend Rob being a voluntary guinea pig with the setup shown above in the pictures. He is also a little wary of the setup as it gets pretty busy around all the belts and moving parts. However, he is taking the process very slowly. He's been driving with the trigger wheel and sensor mounted for a few weeks, periodically checking the drift/eccentricity or any misalignment that may occur during regular operation. So far he has not reported anything bad happening. He also plans to maintain his dizzy setup as a backup, using a set of plugs and sockets that will allow a quick switchover of tach signal should the unthinkable happen. If his plan succeeds, I plan to follow it, as it is a known in a sea of variables. I am teetering between using my coil and dizzy or moving to wasted spark and eliminating the dizzy. Lately I've been drifting away from wasted spark as it is pretty pointless on the ZDJL which doesn't like to rev much past the high 5000s. At any rate, I have some time to sit on this. I'll begin reporting my fuel economy as soon as I get my next fill-up. I can't quantify the power gain, but it is certainly significant.
  6. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Update! I fixed the problem. My noise filtering in Megasquirt has been affecting my idle when the RPMs drop. Should have realized that earlier, but the noise filter menu is a little confusing. Now I have a ROCK solid idle, augmented by the kick-ass PWM closed loop idle control. I can easily hold an idle at 500 rpm (rough, but stable) when the power steering yanks the a load on the engine. The closed loop PID control does the rest. I have now defeated the Bosch Jetronic in all respects. Time to paint the 404 so I can have a glorious DD while the 505 gets torn apart for a trigger wheel install. Wade
  7. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Stewart, I am having an issue where my idle collapses, even with my PID control of the PWM valve fighting it. The idle collapses quickly once the rpms drop to ~650. This can be achieved by putting a load on the engine (power steering) at idle. What I've noticed in my log files is that the rpms drop from 650 to 65 rpms and float around there for a while. Since I'm getting my ignition trigger from the dizzy reluctor, I'm wondering if my dizzy pickup is failing to read a signal at low rpms. Perhaps my Voltage drop from the alternator is affecting it. I was just wondering if you have observed any classic failure modes of a worn dizzy pickup. Wade
  8. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Thanks Stewart, I made a rather large discovery yesterday. I am a fool. I have been driving my car with the timing retarded by 10 degrees. AKA I was idling at TDC not 10 degrees BTDC. A previous owner had rebuilt the engine and never set the timing right. I checked it briefly and wasn't thinking. The crank pulley mark lined up with the TDC tick mark, not 10 degrees BTDC. What a fool I was! The car runs WAY better now. I guess the problem was that I have never driven a 505 with a ZDJL in it, so I never knew what to expect out of the vehicle to begin with. The car has much more responsiveness and drives much smoother. I believe I have more tuning to do as far as idle stuff goes. For ignition, an Aussie friend of mine, Rob, has given me permission to share a few of his devices that he has fabricated for his 505. He is setting up a missing tooth trigger on his crank. I plan to follow this route, as it will be better than pulling from the dizzy.
  9. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Hi Stewart, You are probably right about the air leak. Last weekend, I shit-canned the Bosch Aux Air Valve and replaced that mess of (likely leaking) hoses with a single 2 wire Pulse Width Modulation valve (Bosch 0 280 140 516). The Megasquirt can directly control this actuator, so now I have the option to configure a open-loop warmup and also closed-loop idle control. This will allow me to account for various environmental changes too! So far it is working ok, but I just installed it last night, so I need to tweak it more on the software side of things. I think one issue that is cryptic and hard to define is my ignition triggering from the coil negative. I believe I am getting a lot of noise from that signal, despite my efforts in the noise filtering menu. This made it tricky to dial in my injector dead-time. I was getting absurdly low dead times when matching the AFRs with different pulse configurations at a fixed rpm. I think I tuned through the noise, and have a dead time of about .8 ms now. We'll see. Since I plan to install a trigger wheel for dead-on accurate tach signal eventually, I suppose this problem will be fixed eventually. As for now, I fear I may be suffering instability at lower idle rpms. I notice that the rpms will collapse into the cranking range sometimes when I rev the engine and let it rev down to idle. Also when I load the engine up by cranking down on the power steering, the MAP jumps up and the RPMs drop to around 500. The car will die easily in this scenario. I'm hoping to "tune around" this with my PWM valve in closed loop PID mode, and then use timing advance and hopefully have a better tach signal when I move to missing tooth wheel triggering. I guess another interim option could be triggering off of the distributor reluctor. I know there is essentially a 4 tooth cam wheel on the dizzy. I think it is a VR sensor, so it'd require some filtering/tuning to get that working. It would probably be less noisy though. Just some thoughts for now. I highly recommend the PWM valve. It is much cheaper (less than $60 for circuit parts and PWM valve) and is more fluid than a stepper motor, which is MSII's default option. Best, Wade
  10. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Hi Rabin, Nothing too exciting yet that I have measured. I've been spending a lot of time tuning the engine's fuel map. I have definitely noticed a SIGNIFICANT increase in responsiveness and power. The car runs much better when up to operating speed. I have tuned my MAT correction to avoid the heatsoak issues I got when trying a hot start or sitting in traffic too long. Currently, I am considering adding a Idle Air Control stepper motor, as I am struggling with getting the car to run reasonably when cold. The Bosch Aux Air Valve doesn't provide enough air even at full open adjustment. I think the part may be worn. As far as fuel economy, I got about 17 mpg on my last tank, which is about the same as before. EXCEPT this doesn't really mean anything considering I probably burned half that tank in my driveway tuning the idle and fuel maps. I'll keep you guys posted as I progressively sort through the fuel tuning. Wade
  11. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Thanks Stewart, I'm assuming you're the gentlemen on AussieFrogs called "Stew". You've provided a lot of insight and knowledge on the ZDJL. Don't you have one of those engines in a 404? that must really pull. My XC6 in my 404 has plenty of grab at just 80 HP. Every day I've been dialing in the fine tuning parameters to get a more stable idle. I must admit, I was quite shocked that my Megasquirt system fired up after only 30 minutes of fiddling around. An injector o-ring wasn't seated right, so I got a nice little petrol-shower on my first startup, but otherwise I had wiring everything up OK the first time! Not a very likely scenario for me... As far as the tuning, I owe much of my success to Rob for providing a tune file that was already configured for the Australian ZDJL, which was close enough to drive right out of the driveway without any significant issues! I've considered adding a Idle Air Control stepper motor setup, as MSII directly supports this. It seems my Bosch Aux Air Valve doesn't supply enough air on a cold start for me to get above 800 rpms. I've adjusted it to it's maximum dilation too. It's not a critical issue, as the car still drives OK enough to get it warmed up. The idle is stable and smooth at full operating temp. Once I add spark control I'll be able to adjust spark advance and retard such that my idle enters a stabilizing feedback loop when it starts to drop too low. I'll post some more updates when I've gotten things dialed in further! Wade
  12. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Hi Stewart, Thanks for the knowledge yet again! Are you experienced with TunerStudio? I have been wading through it this weekend and fine tuning a few parameters such as injector dead time. Basically, to start off my tuning, I received a tune file from the aforementioned Rob gentleman. He came to this tuning on his Aussie spec 505, although I'm not sure exactly how he developed it. The way I understand tuning is that you set up an AFR table first. Attached is the AFR table I imported from Rob's tune and what I have been using on my car. My idle is set at 13.8 at 45 kpa and 800 rpm. The Volumetric Efficiency table can be autotuned with reference to this AFR table. Using this setup, I have gotten the car running very well when up to full engine temp and everything. I have some datalogging files I could share if you're interested. My poor running occurs when the engine temp drops or heat soaking occurs (although a short drive typically wipes out the heat soak problem). I guess my question is: how do I know the car is running optimally? is the AFR table the first table that you create? To touch on your points listed: OK, no problem Wouldn't plugging vacuum advance make the car run like garbage? Got it, I don't start auto-tune until the engine is hot and up to full operational temp I have set the valve clearances per spec at 0.1mm intake 0.24mm exhaust. Everything sounds good there. I'm still a little fuzzy on how to set the initial table you mentioned, is this the AFR table or the VE table? How do I know the engine is tuned optimally? It seems to get confusing when the ideal AFR is different across all the loading and rpm scenarios. Thanks! Wade
  13. wadehilts

    '87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

    Hey Stewart, I hope you got your vittles! The ECU install has begun! Last weekend was very busy. I have successfully installed a fuel-only control system in the 505. I am in the process of learning how to tune, with the assistance of an Australian gentlemen by the name of Rob, who has done a similar thing to his 505. We are working on the missing tooth crank wheel, but for now I'm focused on the tuning side of things and getting used to the software. I replaced the AFM with metal tubing and modified a TPS to fit. All my sensors, including wideband O2 and up and running well. I'm getting my ignition trigger from the coil negative at this point. For some reason I cannot upload pictures to this thread... here is a link: http://imgur.com/a/NURjm The car certainly already runs WAY better than it had before. Smoother acceleration, better response. I am still dialing in the cold start enrichment as well as fighting some heat-soak issues. The IAT rises to 150 F when sitting, which makes idling really rough and lean. I can only imagine how getting a perfect ignition control would make this baby perform! I'm super overwhelmed with the tuning software, so I need a couple days to straighten out my issues with fuel delivery after I've learned more about it. Thanks for all the advice! Wade
  14. wadehilts

    Megasquirt in '87 505 GLS

    Thanks guys for the input. Stewart, I am beginning to understand what you meant. Perhaps I will have an easier time tuning if I don't add vacuum regulation right off the bat. I began my prep fabrication this weekend, I had a bung welded to my exhaust for the wideband and I've taken off my plenum chamber and gooped up a plentiful blob of JB weld to hold on the IAT sensor bung (hopefully the stuff will hold). Managed to lose one of plenum-manifold o-rings, made for a fun 20 minute hunt around the engine bay, only to find it had rolled 20 feet across my driveway! I plan to fabricate some sort of metal plate with a ~57mm ID cylindrical extrusion that can be installed on the existing air filter assembly, where the AFM was. Then I can run intake hose to the throttle body from there. I'll then need to find a place to mount my fuel pump relay/fuse board. After that, I should be ready to install all sensors and components. Stewart, you also mentioned a few engine tuning points that I have yet to investigate. You said setting the valve clearances at 0.15 mm is a 'trade-secret' for this engine. I haven't yet looked in my engines manual to get the factory specs, but I am a little worried that my US-spec engine has a different cam (someone told me that, not sure if its true). Perhaps I should stick to the factory specs for my initial tuning anyways. The fine tuning can come later. Another thing you mentioned is the positive crankcase vent on the valve cover, apparently it can cause pre-ignition at higher rpms? I'd imagine this is a bigger problem for you Aussies who have a 9.9:1 CR, whereas the US spec only has a 8.8:1. I have considered adding a filter of sorts to remove the oil from the air re-entering the engine. My 404 enlists a similar filter on its crankcase. Anyways, back to the details of my install: I have two things I'd like to share: I am fortunate enough to have a contact in Australia who has done a Megasquirt upgrade to his 505 GTI. His engine is very similar to mine, with the ZDJL LE2 injection. He is controlling fuel and spark, getting his tach signal from the distributor reluctor and driving the Bosch 123 (?) ICM with Megasquirt. I can use his tuning map to get me to a ballpark fuel map. My first implementation is going to be fuel-only. I will read my rpm signal from the coil negative and use the existing ignition system on the car to manage spark. I will later add a missing tooth wheel and move to wasted-spark, eliminating the distributor and adding a 4 tower coil with a built-in igniter. I'll be sending a logic-level spark signal from my MSII to the coil.
  15. wadehilts

    Megasquirt in '87 505 GLS

    According to the megasquirt info page (from the link I posted above), they are suggesting that you use a fuel pressure regulator that has some sort of manifold vacuum reference. I know Megasquirt is reading the MAP constantly, so perhaps the tuning software can account for this? Wade
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